Standing, left to right: Carlos Gracie Jr., Rorion Gracie, Helio Gracie, Richard Bresler, and Romero “Jacare” Cavalcanti. Kneeling: Rickson Gracie. Photo courtesy Richard Bresler.

In the very first Ultimate Fighting Championship in 1993, a skinny Brazilian named Royce Gracie defeated much bigger and stronger opponents using what was largely an unknown martial art called jiu-jitsu. The event was produced by Royce’s older brother Rorion Gracie, the oldest son of Helio Gracie. Many people understandably equate the first ever UFC with the birth of Brazilian jiu-jitsu in the United States.

While UFC 1 was a platform for the United States to be exposed to jiu-jitsu for the first time, it was already slowly spreading in the Los Angeles area in the 1980’s. Our guest today on the FightWorks Podcast is Richard Bresler, who was one of Rorion Gracie’s earliest students after they met in 1979. Bresler became Rorion’s roommate and was a front row witness to those early days in LA, where Rorion and other Gracie brothers would face challenge upon challenge from other martial arts masters, who inevitably were shown the supremacy of the Gracie family’s jiu-jitsu. The stories in today’s show shed light into an important time in Brazilian jiu-jitsu’s history that is not well documented.

We will also review last week’s BJJ Poll and thanks to a call from one of the Mighty 600,000, introduce our newest poll. (Please call and leave us a message or question for the show! The number is 877-247-4662!)

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TRANSCRIPTION OF RICHARD BRESLER INTERVIEW

US BJJ HISTORY

The Fightworks Podcast: Alright family, we are in Los Angeles today. I’ve driven up from Southern California and I’m sitting down with a gentleman named Richard Bresler, and we’re going to hear an angle of the story of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu’s exodus from Brazil on its path towards global fame and acceptance. Richard, how are you?

Richard Bresler: I’m great, thank you.

The Fightworks Podcast: I’m doing well. So, basically family, the reason I’m here in LA is because I was contacted in December, after some of our more notorious episodes came out and Richard contacted me. He called me and said “I think there are some things you and your audience might want to know about the history of jiu jitsu, at least in the United States, that they might not know right now.”

Richard Bresler: Right.

The Fightworks Podcast: So, let’s talk Richard. Tell me about the early days of Brazilian jiu jitsu in the United States. When I say early, most of our audience – and you and I talked about this – think that the early days of jiu jitsu in the US is probably around ‘93, right? 1993, when Royce Gracie first fought in the UFC. That’s when things got big. But your experience is way before that.

Richard Bresler: Right. My experience starts around July or August of 1979, when I was in the restaurant business, kind of aimlessly roaming through life. I actually had a friend in the waterbed business, and I got an extra waterbed mattress. I bought a mattress, so I ended up buying a whole bed, so I had an extra mattress. I sold it – before the internet – on Recycler. When I got home from work, there was a recording that said “I want to buy a waterbed mattress”. It was Rorion’s roommate at the time. I called him back, and Rorion answered the phone. I said “Some guy called me about a mattress.” He said, “Well, he already bought one.” I was ready to hang up, but Rorion says “But I want a mattress.” So I said, “Well, come on over” (I lived in the marina). The guy drove over, took him about a half hour, we talked. He was a really calm, very very confident person, and he ended up talking me into selling him three sets of waterbed sheets for $15. I wanted $15 a set! But he just said, “You never know when it will come back to you.” He was such a nice guy, so I said okay. We started walking down out of the house, and he said “Have you ever done any martial arts?” Not wanting to sound like, you know, I said “yeah, I boxed for a little bit. I boxed for three months, why?” He said “well, my family has been doing jiu jitsu in Brazil for sixty five years, we’re a family of champions,” blah blah blah. I’m sitting there going “and yeah, you’re one of these guys, right?” But he was so nice, I was just thinking it, I didn’t say it to him. He says, “Why don’t you come by for a free class?” You know, he said the optimum word there, free, so I went “wow, free private class.” I drove to his house. It had a little garage – not the one that people have seen pictures of, but before that. I took a class, and I was amazed, blown away by the techniques. I was hooked, and at that time, I said “I gotta come back.” Right after the class, Rorion, he made me a fresh glass of apple juice. This was before electric juicers: he peeled the apples, grated them with a plastic grater, put it through a cloth bag, squeezed it…this is like, not only do I get a class with the guy, but he gives me that. So that’s where jiu jitsu started for me. I was hooked and wanted to go from there.

The Fightworks Podcast: This was what year again?

Richard Bresler: It was in the summer of ‘79.

The Fightworks Podcast: So, you were introduced, one of the first Americans probably introduced, to Brazilian jiu jitsu that day?

Richard Bresler: Yes.

The Fightworks Podcast: What happened next?

Richard Bresler: I started coming for class, like one class a week, because at that time he was doing little extra work in the movies, and didn’t really encourage me. He just said “Come once a week.” So, sometimes once, sometimes twice. But I just loved doing jiu jitsu, and my life, personally, was falling apart. I’d been doing the fast food business – which I hated – I had no direction, and jiu jitsu was something I looked so forward to. I was doing drugs, and I mean, I was really going through the worst time of my life. I moved in with guys in the entertainment industry, which didn’t help my personal life. Anyway, so I was talking with Rorion in the summer of ‘80, because he had left for Brazil and come back, a couple of months later. As I kept coming back for my class, I said, “You know, I’ve gotta get away from these roommates. Really, I need some change, I need stability.” He says, “Richard, you know, I need a roommate too. Why don’t we get a place?” I actually was so shocked, I went “why the hell does this guy…” I mean, he needed credit, and I had credit, so we got a place that was called The Garage in Hermosa Beach, on 3rd Street. In October of ‘80, we moved in there, and the first week we were in there, Rickson, Hélio and Carlos Gracie Jr came and spent a week with us. That to me was jiu jitsu heaven.

The Fightworks Podcast: I think most of our listeners are thinking the same thing right now.

Richard Bresler: Oh yeah, I mean, I get to roll with Hélio Gracie when he was in his mid-sixties. I thought, this guy is old and fragile. I remember looking at Rorion, because Hélio doesn’t speak English, and saying “I don’t want to hurt him.” He just smiles at me and says “Don’t worry about it.” Hélio put his hands inside of his gi, so he was doing no hands, and I was mounted on top of him. I tried to choke him, and he just moved around, then next thing I know, he elbow escapes, put me in the guard, swept me and mounted me, all with his hands in his gi. I was just like “how the hell did he do that?” I have pictures, I have videos of me doing little, two or three minute videos on my Facebook page, of Rickson. Thank god we had 8mm back then: it’s really weird, we see the video cameras people have now on their phones, wasn’t even as good as these 8mm. I got to roll with Rickson more than a couple of times then, but at least it was recorded. It was incredible to be back then. Rickson was nineteen at the time, and I think he’d just fought Zulu.

The Fightworks Podcast: Yeah, that’s about right. Ok, so [laughs] you are suddenly thrust into the paradise of jiu jitsu before anybody. You weren’t the only person training at the time, right, but you were one of the earliest, apparently?

Richard Bresler: I think Rorion had taught a couple of guys before me, but I was the first regular student. I was the first student who kept coming back. He’d given a class, but people for whatever reason didn’t come. I kept coming back. In October of ‘80, whenever there was a chance, I would tell somebody. I told one of my brothers friends, I said “I’ve started doing this martial art, and this guy taught me, I can choke you out with a towel.” You know, a beach towel, collar choke. So I threw the towel around his neck, he tapped in like a second. He goes “I gotta learn to do that!” So I told somebody, and he’d meet people, someone would tell somebody else. Back then, we would go to other jiu jitsu schools. We went to an American Jiu Jitsu school, just because I thought if a guy had a black belt around his waist, jiu jitsu was jiu jitsu.

The Fightworks Podcast: Of course! Isn’t it?

Richard Bresler: Yeah! [laughs] I was awakened to so many things…I mean, there are too many stories to tell you everything that happened. We went to an American Jiu Jitsu school, and the guy that was there – I was basically a blue belt at the time – the guy says to Rorion, “Look, you tell your other guys,” (he kinda waves) “go over there with the other guys, and bring your black belts over here.” So I’m going over there with the other guys, and Rorion grabs me by the sleeve, and says “Come with me.” I’m like, “Rorion, he said black belts.” He says, “Don’t worry Richard, you know more than these guys.” I’m like…I’m shocked. So I’m mounted on top of the guy, and Rorion is saying “What would you do if?” I’m mounted, and the guy reaches up and puts two fingers in the bone over here, and he just tries to put pressure on to get me off. I just sat up a little higher, and the guy goes crazy trying to throw me off. As he threw me off, I’d grabbed him in an armlock. Rorion is just like, “So Richard,” he didn’t want to show him anything. He just told me to let go, so I let go of the armlock. Then the guy mounted on top of me, and I rolled him off in a couple of seconds. I was blown away by what this jiu jitsu stuff is about. The more I was involved, the more I went, there is something here. I was telling everybody I could about jiu jitsu, and they would just say, “Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure.”

The Fightworks Podcast: This is, like you said, before the first Gracie Academy ever opened in Los Angeles. At this point, the extent of jiu jitsu in the United States, certainly round here, was that garage, right?

Richard Bresler: Yeah, the garage on 3rd Street, Hermosa Beach. That was the Academy. I mean, I had a ‘76 BMW that I couldn’t park in the garage, because our garage was reserved for the mats. That was the Academy. I lived with Rorion for about fifteen months, then he got married and Ryron was born, so I left there. Things from around 1980, Rorion would talk to different martial artists and – I mean, it’s pretty public now – Rorion would talk to different guys, and he ended up fighting some guys because they wanted the challenge. Rorion told me, he says, “Richard, I don’t want to make an enemy, I don’t want to do that, we realize we’d make too many enemies.” So, if he did it, he says “I’ll tell you what, you can go out, I don’t care who you find, I don’t care what they know, I don’t care how tough they think they are, if they want to put it on the line, put it on the line. Bring them over.”

The Fightworks Podcast: Your job was to go pick fights?

Richard Bresler: [Laughs] My job was to go pick fights! I didn’t know where to go.

The Fightworks Podcast: This is in audio format, so for our listeners, why don’t you describe yourself?

Richard Bresler: [Laughs]

The Fightworks Podcast: Neither of us are big, imposing guys.

Richard Bresler: 6′5, 270…

The Fightworks Podcast: [Laughs]

Richard Bresler: Yeah, I’m barely 5′11, and I’m 160lbs.

The Fightworks Podcast: So, when you went out on these missions to recruit the…victims basically, what was that like?

Richard Bresler: Well, Rorion was 6′1, maybe 170 to 175, so he wasn’t a big guy. Ryron and Rener are much bigger and stronger looking than Rorion was. So I’d go into karate schools. I didn’t know where else, who had the toughest guys? I heard a lot of stories. I’d go in there and I’d talk to them, and I’d try to be really nice, but I’d say “There is this guy from Brazil that is kinda irritating and he thinks that he’s all that. Do you have any guys here that are really tough?”

The Fightworks Podcast: Personally, I can’t stand the guy. [Laughs] Come on over!

Richard Bresler: I wanted to hear this guy, because I heard stories, and they’d make like an inch sign with their fingers, and they’d say “Oh man, I have this guy, and he’s like a stone killer. He can break a brick from an inch away, you don’t want to mess with this guy.” So I said, “That’s the guy that I want.” You know? They’d talk and they’d talk and they’d talk, and nothing would happen. I would say, “Two guys go in, basically. Obviously they’re not going to eye gouge, but it is just going to be a fight.” I’m telling you, I heard so many stories, but no-one was willing to do it.

The Fightworks Podcast: But apparently some people were willing to stop by, because we’ve seen the videos, right?

Richard Bresler: Well yeah, but that was a little bit later. I mean, I had a guy that worked for me, that was a second degree black belt in kempo. This was back in ‘80, I had a fast food place. So I said, “Why don’t you come over?” He came over, and they both had on gis. Then this guy is throwing some punches, but just kinda like really lightly, and Rorion would go into the punches, clinch, and take him down gently. Each time that my employee got taken down, he got madder and madder, and kept trying to hit Rorion harder. Rorion actually let the guy have eleven tries. Around the eighth, the guy took the gi off, and he’s jumping around, like “I’m going to take you out!” He’s really serious now. Anyways, we’re on the eleventh time. Rorion lunged in, lifted the guy up and slammed him. Each time, Rorion was gentle, but after the slam, the guy was “Ok, I’ve had enough.” So there were guys that started to see it, but there were still so many guys back then that didn’t believe it. They were like “Wait a second. Yeah, this guy just wasn’t tough enough,” or he wasn’t this, he wasn’t that. I’d seen the videos of Zulu and Rickson, twice, I’d hear about the stories of what those guys did in Brazil, but it was a little different in the US than in Brazil. I mean, the things in Brazil they would tell me. Rorion, or Hélio would put on something in the paper, like “If you want to get your arm broken, come to the Gracie Academy.” This is early on in Brazil. Well, you can’t really do that in the US. Besides, he was trying to make friends and he was trying to show people.

The Fightworks Podcast: Ok, so you’re at a point in the early ’80s there where a few people here, in the Los Angeles area, are beginning to understand what jiu jitsu is because you were out on these missions to help Rorion spread the word, the good word. Did you have any particular stories in the entertainment industry that our listeners might enjoy?

Richard Bresler: Well, actually there’s one I have in mind, but before I tell you that, there was a guy at the time, who I think was a lightweight kickboxing champion, Benny Urquidez, in the ’80s. We had the opportunity to go to his school. So I went there: I remember my mom and my aunt, my dad, we all went over there. It was kind of like a thing where I went “Wow man.” I mean, Benny Urquidez had a reputation for being quite a fighter back then, knocking out guys, but he was a lightweight. So when we went in the studio, they would just be shadow boxing or kicking. Rorion would just cover up and lunge in, but nothing really happened, because I don’t think they really wanted to engage. So it kinda stayed there, and at the time, Rorion went “Richard, go put on your gi.” I’m like, “Put on my gi? I’m a blue belt, I’ve never had any kind of experience.” I’m shaking, and saying “What do I do?” He says, “Ok, we’re going to stand you guys up against each other. I want you to cover your head, and when they say ‘go’, you just lunge.” I didn’t have hardly any practice at all. Not a fighter! They had some guy that was a purple belt in their style, and I was just a brand new blue belt. They put us up against each other, so I covered up in a fighting stance, and they said “Go!” I lunged at the guy, clinched him, pulled him into my guard, sat him down and went for a collar choke, because he had a gi on. As soon as I went for the collar choke, Rorion stopped it. He didn’t really want to show anyone else what we were doing. So, they stopped it, and Benny started saying, well, this is what he’s going to do, you know, so it kinda stopped there. I was happy that it didn’t go any further, but it was interesting that they started to explain that they would be able to counter stuff like that. But it never happened. But the story that probably most sticks out, is when we were invited by Chuck Norris. Or rather, Rorion was invited, and Rorion happened to bring Hélio and Rickson and Relson, Renzo, a couple of the Machado brothers. We went down to Vegas, for Chuck Norris’ annual seminar, I think it was. He invited a hundred black belts, his top guys throughout the country. Then he invited Rorion to come down and do a little seminar. I was lucky enough to travel with them at the time. So we went down there and I met Chuck Norris, who was a really nice guy, told me how he met Rickson and Hélio down in Brazil. Anyways, Rorion was talking with one of the guys, at a break in the seminar. They were talking about how good they thought jiu jitsu was, because they would stand up against their black belts. Clinch in, take them down, and none of the jiu jitsu guys got hit. They could say, you know, maybe they weren’t really trying, but even if they were trying, I would have thought the odds were in jiu jitsu’s favour. Anyways, at the break, this guy was saying about how jiu jitsu was good, but in a real life situation? In other words, if Rickson had to fight Dennis Alexio (who was the heavyweight kickboxing champion at the time), if he had to fight someone like that, he wouldn’t stand a chance. Rorion wasn’t saying anything, so I happened to go to the guy, and said, “Excuse me, this is what you’re saying?” He says, “That’s exactly what I’m saying. Rickson wouldn’t have a chance.” I put up ten grand of my own money too see if I could materialise this fight. To make a long story short, three months went by, and every time we talked to the guy, it took him, the first time it took him a week to get back to us. Second time, two weeks. Third time…you know. Anyway, after three months, we realised it wasn’t going to happen. But I had so much confidence that I didn’t think twice about putting up ten grand back in 1987, when I didn’t have a whole lot of cash to put up. I was so confident in jiu jitsu. This is before the UFC was even thought about, to do this.

The Fightworks Podcast: In a formal setting.

Richard Bresler: In a formal setting, yeah. So I guess that probably takes us to 1989, when Rorion came to me. He had four garages going at the time, he had the Machado’s in one, Rickson in another, Royce in another, and I don’t even know who else. I just remember there was like…

The Fightworks Podcast: …a network of garages?

Richard Bresler: Yeah, all in the South Bay. So he came to me, and he said “You know, if I’m going to make this thing bigger, I’m going to have to get into a school.” So I said, “Isn’t there any guy? I mean, there’s got to be guys out there who are willing to put up some money.” People weren’t knocking Rorion’s door down to open up a school. He needed to get a loan from a bank, and before he could get a loan from a bank, he needed to have something to show for it. So he came to me, and he said “Rich.” I didn’t have a whole lot of cash, but I borrowed twenty grand from my parents, and I had forty grand. So I said “Look, so if you get this money to show the bank, the bank will loan you another sixty thousand.” I went and met with the bank guy, who loaned him the money, and invested a little bit in the academy, and I said, “Let’s go for it.” So here, the Gracie Jiu Jitsu school in Torrance is born. He brought Rickson up – Royce was already here, Royce was a workhorse back then – and then Rickson, and I think Royler came a little bit later. We were doing classes, but people still weren’t knocking the doors down, to get in. At times, we were ready to be shut down by the sheriffs. That’s when I think about how things are now, as far as jiu jitsu. I look at what Rorion created, and realise that love or hate the guy, he’s the guy. He told me back when I met him, “I want to bring jiu jitsu to the world. If it’s in Brazil, it stays in Brazil. You bring it to the US, it will go out to the world.” This was his vision, and created hundreds of jobs for people. The early on guys he brought to do these garages at first, except for Royce, and maybe Rickson, there was a couple of other guys that worked for him. In Brazil, it was very, very lax. If you say 07:30, it means 09:00. Rorion was like, he had to be professional. These were the things that weren’t done back then. You know, the guys in Brazil, they went surfing, they train jiu jitsu, they go surfing. Here, if you say a class is at 12:00, you show up at 12:00.

The Fightworks Podcast: So, do you know if this was the first jiu jitsu school in the United States?

Richard Bresler: Well I know that Carley Gracie was up in San Francisco at the time. I don’t know where or how he was teaching jiu jitsu, but he didn’t make a name for himself there. But I know that this was the first Brazilian jiu jitsu school. I know that Rorion was doing, because of In Action, Gracie Jiu Jitsu in Action 1 and 2 in the martial arts magazines, it started to create a little bit of a buzz. I was lucky enough to travel to Hanner College in New York in the late ’80s, and Parsipanny, New Jersey, where I think Steve Maxwell probably got his start over there. But as far as jiu jitsu schools, not only was it maybe the first jiu jitsu school, but it was probably the nicest jiu jitsu school. You go into that school, and you don’t see paper towels on the floor or whatever. Everything is spotless, he runs it like a business. It’s nice and it’s clean. Even from where he’s gone now, he has his new school, that is incredible.

The Fightworks Podcast: I want to jump back just for a second, because you mentioned something that most of our listeners probably know about, but just in case, worth reviewing. You mentioned, and I think I even mentioned earlier in the conversation, Gracie in Action. Tell people about that.

Richard Bresler: That just spurred on a couple of memories, you know, because there were so many guys. Some of the fights on In Action were some of the fun ones in Brazil, that you can see Rolls and Rickson and Rorion fighting. But some of the stuff was here. They had started to make a lot of friends, and there were still – and I hate to use this term, but – ‘non-believers’. You know, the guys that wanted to put up. So we went to El Camino College, there was a guy that teaches aikido there. Really nice guy, Mitsu Yamashida, who started to study jiu jitsu. So we’d meet people, and they’d invited us down. There was this one night there was some kung fu guy, so Rorion went down to fight the kung fu guy. These guys would all sorts of screaming sounds, and they’d clinch in, he’d mount on top of the guy and finish the fight. Then the kung fu guy’s instructor was there, who Rorion took on twice. There were a lot of these little things that were happening, over and over again. Rorion, every time they would put up, he’d show what would happen, including Ralph Allegria, which was done in a boxing mat. It was kinda like a prelim to a small fight in Torrance, and the fight was over so quickly. Ralph greased his body up, because he knew what Rorion was going to do.

The Fightworks Podcast: Give us some background, because I bet our listeners don’t know who Ralph Allegria is.

Richard Bresler: Ralph Alegria, at the time, I think he was probably a champion in kickboxing. Just like anything, someone probably said to him, “Yeah, I’ll fight this guy.” He does, you know, this jiu jitsu stuff, which no-one really knew enough about. So when they step into the ring, Rorion is looking down, just warming up, and Ralph is jumping all over the ring, throwing kicks, trying to intimidate. Throwing kicks like maybe a foot from Rorion’s head, showing just how powerful a person he is. I understand why anyone would want to do it, to intimidate somebody, but you know, he wasn’t easily intimidated. He’d been under fire before. So when the fight started, actually, I was announcing the fight at that time, but you couldn’t even hear me, there was so much screaming. I wasn’t yelling loud enough, I wasn’t an announcer, but I was just trying.

It happened so fast: Rorion got into the clinch, they went against the ropes, he tried to grab the ropes, Rorion tripped him, fell down. Like Rorion says In Action 1, by the time he turned over, he had so much Vaseline on his body his arm just slid around his neck and made it easy to choke him. Those things happened regularly. It was a common thing back then. Then Royler fought guys, Royler did a couple of things when we had the Academy. Fabio Santos fought, a couple of times. This was after the Academy started, guys would come in and want to, you know, there was the Gracie Challenge.

The Fightworks Podcast: So, these events were the sort of thing that were filmed and put on, at the time, VHS right?

Richard Bresler: Yeah, [laughs] VHS, yes.

The Fightworks Podcast: And distributed in magazines and elsewhere, and that’s where the beginning of spreading this word happened?

Richard Bresler: That’s right. That’s what had happened, where people started to, you know, the jiu jitsu buzz started. But as much as a buzz had started, there were still people that just didn’t realise what it was. It took the inception of the UFC and Royce to show this. There was enough of a buzz in Southern California, and Steve Maxwell on the East Coast was excited about it.

The Fightworks Podcast: But there was still nobody?

Richard Bresler: Yeah. I mean, the whole country knew nothing about it. I always thought that if a guy knew how to strike, you know, I was always watching movies, like Enter the Dragon. John Saxon, who starred along with Bruce Lee and Jim Kelly, both became students of Rorion. It kinda makes me wonder if Bruce Lee had lived, he probably would have become a student of Rorion’s too. Which, you know, I can only guess, because those two guys did. It was amazing. Going back to early on, we were invited to go to Gene LeBell’s school, where they trained judo, down at the LACC. I remember when Rorion went down there with me. The guys did mostly stand-up, but part of their class was grappling. Rorion would go in, because he always wanted to see if he could get surprised by anybody. We went in there and he put his gi on, and he started rolling with all sorts of different guys, and it was amazing to watch. As he was grappling with them, he was also looking around the room to see who the next good guy was. So he is looking at me, looking around the room, as he is sparring with somebody, and then he would mouth out the word ‘armlock’.

The Fightworks Podcast: [Laughs]

Richard Bresler: And he would get the armlock. Yeah, from across the room, “I’m going to catch the guy in an armlock.” Then he’d say ‘choke’, and he’d get the guy in a collar choke. I was just dumbfounded, that these guys had no clue what was coming. It amazed me.

The Fightworks Podcast: This is all, like you said, the time before…

Richard Bresler: Yeah, this is the ’80s, the mid ’80s.

The Fightworks Podcast: First time reference for our newer listeners, or somebody who is just getting into any of this: the first UFC, when Royce Gracie showed Brazilian jiu jitsu on a bigger stage, was in 1993.

Richard Bresler: Right. November of 1993. I remember when I was ringside, because I was one of the guys who invested a little bit of money in it, and I get to travel with them. I remember I brought a little snack of fruit with me, to eat. I couldn’t eat it, because of the knot in my stomach. I was nervous: it was such a big thing back then. That was when most people saw that. The early on stuff in the ’80s, was to look back, to see how jiu jitsu was dominating, and now everybody learns jiu jitsu, or most guys learn jiu jitsu, because it is an equalizer.

The Fightworks Podcast: Yeah, that’s the idea.

Richard Bresler: Yeah, there’s not the element of surprise any more.

The Fightworks Podcast: So, one of the things that you and I talked about, before I arrived here in LA today, was the difference between the jiu jitsu of then versus what the conception of jiu jitsu is now. Do you want to talk about that?

Richard Bresler: Right, yeah. Where I teach now at Krav Maga, they show jiu jitsu as ‘ground fighting’, and most people that are doing like competitions or going to a regular jiu jitsu school – which is great, I love that a lot of people are doing jiu jitsu. When I went over for my classes, jiu jitsu had a whole stand-up array of self defense. A lot of people don’t know they, they know jiu jitsu as going in, some great sweeps and awesome armlocks and some chokes and all that, but we’d start the class out as like a collar grab.

The Fightworks Podcast: From standing?

Richard Bresler: Yeah, from standing. You know, a guy on the street is going to throw a punch at you, a knife, a choke from behind, a club. Whatever it was, it was a whole array of stand up self defense, which is not taught at very many schools now. Although I hear there is a guy, Fabricio Werdum I think, is still doing the stand up stuff. He’s over on Lincoln, in Venice. But other than that, I don’t think a lot of schools do that, and I don’t think a lot of people know that about jiu jitsu, that its got a whole stand-up self defense. Which I liked, I loved doing the whole self defense. I think it made it more complete, ready for the street. I never really was interested in competition. Rorion was more interested in protecting yourself on the street.

The Fightworks Podcast: That’s been a theme, and people talk about that. To what extent – or not – does that take part or belong in the Brazilian jiu jitsu of today. I think there is certainly a lot to be said for what you’re saying. It was the reason it all began, right, to protect oneself, and not win the 180lbs and above blue belt seniors gold medal, right? It’s street stuff.

Richard Bresler: Well yeah, Hélio Gracie, at the memorial for Hélio Gracie, early last year, one of the things that I think Ryron said was that if he had his choice, he wouldn’t have taught anyone over 170lbs jiu jitsu. It was to protect the small guy, to give the small guy an equalising chance against the bigger guy. In an ideal world: he also still at the same time wanted to spread jiu jitsu and show the world what he had. Hélio Gracie was, I mean, I got the opportunity to meet him in 1980 and roll with him a few times. Just an amazing human being, and when I went to Brazil, I got picked up by Hélio Gracie at the airport. Hélio and Relson picked me up there and drove me back. Just to get picked up by the old guy, and to see him at the tournaments, and how many people wanted to have their picture taken with him and get autographs. I don’t know what made me think of this, but I just remember when I was standing on a stage with him, which was, maybe, eighteen inches off the ground, where that brick is? Some guy wanted a picture with him, and I was going to actually help him down, and the guy is like ninety-four, or ninety or whatever it was, and he jumps off the stage. Most people want to be walking at ninety-two, and he jumps off a stage to have his picture taken. Yeah, it was truly amazing. His vision for jiu jitsu, I think, was kinda like Rorion’s vision is. I think it’s great that people do what they do and everyone has to be guided to, you know. I’m not saying anything negative about competition jiu jitsu, I think it’s great, but there is another part of jiu jitsu. Most people, I think, like Rorion told me, were getting involved in jiu jitsu as a self defense, to protect yourself. That is why most people want to do a martial art.

The Fightworks Podcast: Ok Richard, you’ve taken us way back, into times I don’t think many people have much insight into, right? There’s probably not a whole lot of documentation of the way things were back then, right?

Richard Bresler: No.

The Fightworks Podcast: So let’s wrap up. Are there any closing thoughts you would leave our audience with? Given that you had that unique opportunity to be Rorion Gracie’s roommate when he first arrived here, and help start his new school, travel around, this is all years before the first UFC.

Richard Bresler: Right.

The Fightworks Podcast: What would end this conversation with?

Richard Bresler: I guess the purpose for me bringing this to you was just to give the guys, your listening audience, a history of what happened, because there was a whole lot of jiu jitsu before 1993 and the UFC, and how lucky these guys are right now, they get to train. It’s not like I’m being a pro-Rorion person, I’m just saying that this guy, it’s his vision that made this whole thing possible. Nobody else was ready to jump over to America. He created something because he saw what he had, and I think it’s just amazing that we’re living in the time that we are, and the guys have such an opportunity to train in most places in the US now.

The Fightworks Podcast: Or for that matter, the whole world.

Richard Bresler: Yeah, the whole world. Absolutely.

The Fightworks Podcast: I get emails from Australia, New Zealand: people everywhere do jiu jitsu now.

Richard Bresler: Yeah.

The Fightworks Podcast: And it’s because of what you’re talking about.

Richard Bresler: Yeah, absolutely. So I think the guy, he is…

The Fightworks Podcast: …a special guy.

Richard Bresler: Yeah, he brought something to the world, and we all owe him a debt of thanks.

The Fightworks Podcast: We would not argue with you here, on the Fightworks Podcast. So Richard, thank you very much.

Richard Bresler: Thank you.

Rener Gracie

Last week on The FightWorks Podcast we heard from New York-based Renzo Gracie, who helped fill in our knowledge of the late Rolls Gracie. Renzo went on to make some comments regarding the Gracie Academy in Torrance, California, which is lead by Helio Gracie’s first born son, Rorion Gracie. Renzo did not mince his words. Today on our humble Brazilian jiu-jitsu internet radio show, we bring you Rener Gracie, Rorion Gracie’s son. Rener responds to Renzo’s comments and goes on to tackle some criticism that has been directed their way regarding their online jiu-jitsu training program called Gracie University.

Also in this episode, we will get to know Jonathan “JT” Torres, the twenty-year old black belt from Lloyd Irvin Martial Arts who has been tearing it up on the competition scene. Despite his youth, his BJJ technique has propelled him to coming in second place as a brown belt at the 2009 BJJ World Championship. He was awarded his black belt shortly later and in September won his weight division at the American National Championship, and came in third in the absolute division. (You can see video of his match against the gold medal winner Joao Assis here.)

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Jonathan Torres plays guard against Gracie Barra’s Bruno Amorim at the 2009 BJJ World Championship.

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TRANSCRIPTION OF RENER GRACIE INTERVIEW

The FightWorks Podcast: Hey family, we are here on the line right now with Rener Gracie, of the Gracie Academy in Torrance, California. As I think the Mighty 600,000 know, there has been an awful lot of chatter online in the last couple of weeks, due to a couple of recent interviews we had on the Fightworks Podcast. That started with Relson Gracie, I think on the 22nd November, and then a week later, on the 29th November, we had Renzo Gracie come on and give a couple of opposing viewpoints to the points Relson raised the week before.

In that conversation, there were some comments made about the Torrance Academy. So, I thought it would only be fair to get a representative from the Torrance Academy on the show to address those, and then move on. So, family please welcome Rener Gracie. Rener, how are you?

Rener Gracie: Thank you bro, appreciate it man, and it’s good to be back. Congratulations on all the success of the show, and thanks for having me.

The FightWorks Podcast: Thank you very much, we appreciate it. Ok Rener, so I’m going to turn it over to you, although I may interrupt you a bit.

Rener Gracie: Feel free.

The FightWorks Podcast: So, I’m guessing you heard the show.

Rener Gracie: Absolutely, I heard the show. So let me take the time to say, first of all, I apologise to my Uncle Renzo. Listening to the interview a week or two ago, it saddened me to know that words which supposedly originated here at the Academy offended him so deeply. I have nothing but respect for Renzo: he’s an amazing fighter and teacher. I just wanted to say that I would never say anything intentionally to demean him or anyone he is associated with.

After listening to his interview, it became clear to me that what bothered Renzo is that someone from the Academy here, either myself or one of my brothers, supposedly told one of his students – correct me if I’m wrong – that we teach the pure Gracie Jiu Jitsu, compared to what everyone else teaches, which is not pure or whatever. That’s kinda what I got from it.

Although I don’t remember the specific incident Renzo is referring to, I do want to acknowledge that we do sometimes use the term ‘Pure Gracie Jiu Jitsu’ to describe what we teach here at the Academy. Now more than ever I can see how that can be offensive to other jiu jitsu instructors, in the family and outside the family, especially when I don’t take the time to explain to the student in that incident.

I have never really openly explained what we mean by ‘pure.’ That’s kinda what I wanted to take the initial time to do here.

When people ask us what the difference is between what we teach and what is being taught elsewhere, and we say that we teach pure Gracie Jiu Jitsu, we’re not claiming to be better fighters, or that we have secret techniques that no one else knows, and we’re really not saying that we have a better capability to produce world champions, here at the Academy.

All we’re saying is that we are teaching the art in accordance to the original fight philosophy of my grandfather, Grandmaster Hélio. If you recall, during Renzo’s interview, he shared his belief on who created the art. If I remember correctly, he stated that Carlos was the first one to learn from the Japanese, as we all know, and that most of the innovative techniques came from Rolls.

Then he went on to say that the only contribution made by Hélio was that he added the defensive aspect, to the art. Do you remember that?

The FightWorks Podcast: I remember most of what you’re saying, but I’ll put it the way I remember, and you correct me: somewhere in the middle is probably what Renzo said.

Carlos Sr was the first to be expose to, and learn jiu jitsu, from Maeda, the Japanese.

Rener Gracie: Sure, sure, sure.

The FightWorks Podcast: From there, after Maeda was doing his own thing somewhere else, presumably, Carlos exposed Hélio to it, and from there at some point down the line, Hélio took it on as his own. As Renzo said, he was the Einstein of taking what Carlos passed him, and refining that into the defensive stuff you’re talking about.

Rener Gracie: Yes.

The FightWorks Podcast: Then from there, Rolls added some different twists.

Rener Gracie: Correct. The truth is, the way it came out to me is that the main thing he attributed to my grandfather was adding the defensive aspect to it.

The FightWorks Podcast: That’s maybe the self defense aspect, is that what you mean?

Rener Gracie: I think more than that. I think what he meant, and I know what he’s talking about, is the survival aspect: the idea that you can beneath somebody and be ok, not have to impose yourself upon them. The overall idea that you can be patient during the fight, and not have to go and attack before you defend. Basically, defense first, then attack later.

The FightWorks Podcast: As a smaller person.

Rener Gracie: As a smaller person, exactly. Now, what Renzo did not say, when he mentioned that my grandfather developed the defensive aspect, was that this defensive mindset enabled my grandfather to survive the Japanese champion Masahiko Kimura for thirteen minutes, and survive against the much younger Waldemar Santana for three hours and forty minutes, when he was about forty years old. It was the defensive mindset that enabled Rickson (when he was younger), to defeat Zulu back in the day, and it was that defensive mindset that put Gracie jiu jitsu on the map back when Royce beat Dan Severn in UFC 4.

Now, what people don’t realize is that when my grandfather added the defensive aspect, he added a philosophy, which was “if you don’t lose, you will eventually win.” That philosophy, more than any other technique or strategy, is what differentiates our jiu jitsu from its Japanese counterpart.

If you think about it, that philosophy is what make our system unique from every other martial art on the planet. As you know, other arts, what they teach is, if you don’t win fast – you’ve got aggression, punch, kick, eye gouge, break him right away – if you don’t win in a hurry, you might lose.

In fact, other martial arts, based on the fact that they teach so much about aggression and overcoming, and basically overwhelming your opponent with aggressive behavior, shouldn’t even be called self-defense. They should be called self-offence, if you ask me.

So when people reference sometimes, in the family and outside the family, that Hélio created Brazilian or Gracie jiu jitsu, it is not because he was the first one to learn the Japanese techniques, or that he created a certain number of moves and added it to the art. It is because the people who say that acknowledge that he added what Renzo called the ‘defensive aspect’. Or, the one thing that made the art useful for smaller people against larger people in real fights.

Now, the problem is that the defensive mindset that is so characteristic of this amazing art is not being taught at 99% of Brazilian jiu jitsu schools. Here’s why: any instructor whose primary objective is to prepare students for MMA or sport jiu jitsu competition cannot teach the defensive mindset, the survival mindset as the ultimate fight strategy, because patience will not lead to victory in the sportive setting. Any time there is an artificial time limit, you have no choice but to adopt a fully ‘offensive mindset’ (as I call it), otherwise you will lose when the time runs out, by points, or by judges decision.

Now, this offensive mindset is ok when you’re fighting someone in your weight class, and you can count on the clock to save you when you’re exhausted. But, as family history and all the fights show, the only reliable way to defeat a giant is to adopt the Grandmaster’s 100% defensive philosophy.

If you got into a fight with Brock Lesnar, for example, and you tell yourself, “I’ve got to win within five minutes, I’ve got to win within this five minute round right now,” what are you going to do? You’re going to fight for your life to make something happen, exhaust yourself in the process, and then expose yourself to get smashed. Like the people who’ve crossed his path, right?

The only reliable strategy against someone that strong is to enter the fight with 100% concern with avoiding defeat at all costs, and wait for them to create an opportunity for you.

The FightWorks Podcast: Which is what you’re saying came from your grandfather.

Rener Gracie: Exactly, and that is the critical mindset which is no longer being taught. Now, it wouldn’t be so bad if schools, Brazilian jiu jitsu schools, taught the defensive mindset for the first few years, and then once it was clear the student had the patience to survive against a giant – and we’ve found that it takes between three to five years for them to really embody this patient, this Grandmaster mindset – at that point, began teaching them the offensive mindset needed to prevail in a sportive setting.

That would make sense, and that wouldn’t be so bad, because then you know that the student is ready for the worst case scenario. Unfortunately, that isn’t a reality, because every sport school is so concerned with creating sportive competitors out of every person who walks in the door that they don’t want to spend any time on any strategy that will not lead to a gold medal.

So when people ask my brothers and I, for example, why we don’t fight MMA, it’s not because we don’t believe in what we’re teaching, quite the opposite. It’s because we have to abandon the one principle that we believe in most: patience.

In order to prevail, we would have to adopt a super-offensive MMA mindset, to entertain the crowd and to please the judges. Obviously, it wouldn’t be worth it. Now, we’ve trained with many UFC fighters out there, and we know the calibre of the guys that are out there. We would win some and we would lose some, like everyone else who plays the game, but for my brothers and I it’s not worth it, to abandon the one thing that our grandfather stood for, just for the quick paycheque.

The FightWorks Podcast: Let me interrupt you Rener, because I don’t want to go too far down the conversation, because you said something earlier that was interesting. I’d like you to clarify a little bit, maybe. It sounded like you’re saying there is a significant difference between the approach to teaching jiu jitsu at the Torrance Academy compared to, based on what you said, 99% of the schools out there.

Rener Gracie: Yes.

The FightWorks Podcast: Is it safe to say, I mean, are we comparing apples and oranges? I know they are two separate ways of thinking about jiu jitsu, but are they really two separate things, almost?

Rener Gracie: I mean…I guess so, I mean it’s becoming that. I would like to think that the schools who do sport jiu jitsu, could be like in the old days, when they had these pure Gracie jiu jitsu schools, who had guys who participated in sport, but the self defense and the survival aspect was the primary focus, and the sportive participation was kind of a by-product.

But now, everyone is so concerned with creating a world champion, something that people in my family do incredibly well – some people in my family, some people out of my family – that there is no time to focus on the aspect that we think is the most important thing about jiu jitsu, the Brazilian way or the Gracie way. The number one thing is being forgotten, more for the sportive aspect.

Let me give you an example, three weeks ago a woman who was a blue belt came down from a school in North California, to do a class with us. During the class, Ryron of course tries to spar with the students who come visit. Ryron was sparring with this girl in the class, and he sidemounted her. When he sidemounted her, he established full control, tight sidemount.

She went berserk, completely crazy to get out. She fought for her life! After about thirty seconds, she exhausted a 100% of her energy, and she gave up, tapped out, “ok, I give up.” Then Ryron asked her, “what were you doing?” Her response was, “I was trying to escape your sidemount,” of course.

Now, it was very clear that she didn’t make this stuff up. There was some sport jiu jitsu or MMA coach out there telling her that when you get trapped on the bottom of sidemount, you must escape at all costs.

Imagine if that same woman got in a real attack, a sexual assault, and a man held her down – got her in the side mount or mount, or whatever – tight, against her will. She would resort to the exact same “escape at all costs” strategy. That would immediately deplete all her energy, at which point she would be helpless against the attacker. That’s when it really starts to get serious.

The major difference between the Gracie Academy and all the sport BJJ schools lies not within the techniques that we practice, although I’m sure there are techniques out there that my brothers and I don’t know, innovative new sport techniques, some that we haven’t learned, just as my brothers and I have developed tricks of our own that we haven’t shared yet.

Essentially, we’re all using the same leverage, we’re all breaking the same arms, we’re all choking the same necks. The real difference lies in the fight philosophy that we promote from the very beginning. We teach our students to avoid defeat at all costs, then attack as soon as the opportunity arises, whereas sport jiu jitsu schools teach to attack as much as possible within the artificial time limit.

So, even though the terms ‘Brazilian’ and ‘Gracie jiu jitsu’ both originated from the same place, when people ask us what the difference is, we say that Brazilian jiu jitsu is the sportive practice of the art, that’s kinda what it has become, whereas Gracie jiu jitsu, or pure Gracie jiu jitsu, is the version of the art that is taught according to the defensive philosophy of the Grandmaster Hélio Gracie.

This is the same philosophy that each and every member of the Gracie family relies on, including Renzo, when facing an opponent who has a significant strength or size advantage. So, all the family members have the philosophy and they know the philosophy, but sometimes they have no choice but to push it aside and omit it in their teachings to prepare world champions.

Ultimately what it has come to is that if we don’t find a way to preserve the philosophy of the Grandmaster, the defensive mindset that put Gracie jiu jitsu on the map, we’ll be lost forever. So my brothers and I, as well as the Valente brothers at Gracie Miami in Florida, who also learned directly from my grandfather, have essentially dedicated our lives to the preservation of this pure Gracie jiu jitsu. Not so that we can create world champions, out of amazing athletes, but so that the underdogs of society always have an art that they can count on.

The FightWorks Podcast: Ok, so here’s another question for you. So, I’m sure you would agree that the guys who are at black belt, who do compete out there, are probably pretty secure compared to everybody else out there in a self defense situation. They’re probably going to be just fine.

Rener Gracie: Correct.

The FightWorks Podcast: So if we pare it back and peel back the onion, brown belts are also probably pretty safe out there, and – I hate to do this to you – but white belts, from what you’re saying, are probably not as exposed to the kind of thing that will keep them safe in a self defense situation.

Rener Gracie: Correct.

The FightWorks Podcast: So somewhere along that spectrum is going to be a person, guy or girl, who has been training jiu jitsu in a “sporting academy”, and somewhere in there they are going to learn the stuff that’s going to make them safe.

Rener Gracie: Yeah, good question! That’s a really good question. I think the blue belt lady who came here is a great example, you know what I’m saying? It’s a great example of how she basically didn’t reach that point yet. That’s the problem, I think it’s flipped. What you’re saying is “Rener, somewhere deep in their career, they’re going to be ready for a street fight scenario.”

At the Gracie Academy, that’s the first and 100% priority before anything else, and then somewhere deeper in their career, they’re going to be so skilled at the street fight scenario and the mindset, and they’re going to have so many techniques – we’re teaching essentially the same thing, the difference is the philosophy – that somewhere deeper, a purple or brown belt from here can go against any sport purple or brown belt out there and fare just as well.

So it’s like, yes, they cross paths somewhere down there, right? The question is, which path should they start on? You know what I’m saying? At the Gracie Academy, we realize that people should start on the path that they came for. Any time somebody walks in the front door of the Academy, we’re assuming – and I think it’s pretty accurate – that they’re coming here to learn how to defend themselves against a larger, stronger opponent in a real fight. Protect themselves, protect their family: they saw Royce in the UFC, and they want to learn that.

They’re not going to the school saying “Hey, I want to get my white belt and win my first gold medal.” You understand? So that’s why we’ve chosen the self defense/survival path first, and then let the competition, if the student ever wants to compete, be a by-product of their several hundred or thousands of training hours, they have the skills, they have the reflexes, and they transfer.

But, in the beginning, what we can’t do is teach the students that if they’re trapped in the bottom of the sidemount, they have to escape at all costs, they have to get out. That’s happening every day at schools around the country because they’re training them for the three, five, seven minute time limit that exists in a tournament jiu jitsu match. They have to, otherwise they have no chance of victory.

The FightWorks Podcast: There’s folks out there who have heard the stories, or have been exposed to folks who – and this is going to play right into what you’re saying – of guys who may be blue belts or even purple who may not have been exposed to a correct escape from a headlock.

Rener Gracie: Yes! Thank you! There are purple belts who come here who don’t know how to block a punch from the guard. There are people who go to our online University – which by the way we have to talk about in a minute or two, because Renzo also bashed that pretty hard, which I understand – but there are people who go to our online University, who train for several years at a sport jiu jitsu school, then they show up at Gracie University.com, and they’re like, “wow, I never learned how to escape the mount against somebody who is punching me!”

This is major stuff. So, later in the interview, Renzo expressed his concerns regarding our efforts to make the complete curriculum available online through Gracie University.com. Since he’s not the first family member to express his concern, I’d like to take a few moments, if you’d let me, to clarify the matter.

The FightWorks Podcast: Yeah, we’ve got about ten more minutes, so let’s slip into that.

Rener Gracie: First of all, in order for you to understand Gracie University.com, you must understand why my grandfather fought in the ring. He didn’t fight to show that he was the baddest. He fought because he modified these techniques, he fought to develop his own conviction in the techniques, to believe in them, and to show his viewers that it worked, so that they would let him teach them.

His passion was to teach, so much so that one week before he passed away, he was teaching a class on a Brazilian television show. His passion was to empower others with the art. With that said, the three phases of the overall Gracie family objective can be understood.

Phase one, of the Gracie family overall objective, was to create the most effective system of self defense that the world had ever known. My grandfather did that, his brothers, everyone added to it, everyone added to it. That’s great.

Now, phase two was to show the world the necessity for the art, by proving it’s effectiveness against other disciplines. That was done by my grandfather, a lot of it, but also by the other uncles: Royce, Rickson, my father when he created the UFC, Renzo every time he fights, these guys are proving it’s effectiveness against other styles, to show the necessity for it.

Phase three, was to teach this system to the world. Phase three of the Gracie family purpose is to empower others. Any Gracie will tell you that. We are here to share, and empower the lives of others.

My brother and I were born and raised during phase two. Ryron and I was raised during phase two. As we matured into adulthood, we had to choose what we were going to spend our time and energy on. What we would dedicate our lives to, basically.

The following two things were most significant in helping us make our decision: first, by the time we were eighteen years old, every UFC fighter had adopted or added Brazilian jiu jitsu to their arsenal. Secondly, and more significantly, as of 2003, the entire US Army had adopted Gracie jiu jitsu as their primary hand-to-hand combat system.

Together, these two points were evidence that phase two was accomplished. The world had accepted Gracie jiu jitsu as the premier martial art, and though I will admit that our egos wanted to fight professionally, to continue proving the effectiveness of the art in the ring, we realized that eventually someone in the family had to stop focusing on proving it and start focusing on sharing it.

That’s when my brothers and I decided we would dedicate our lives to teaching the pure Gracie jiu jitsu to the world. At first we weren’t sure how we were going to do that, since the traditional way of certifying instructors was too slow, and would take forever to accomplish the mission, not to mention it’s hard to find instructors who could uphold the integrity of the art.

That’s when we decided that the only way we could reach the world was through the internet and DVD. Now, we weren’t the first ones to think of this: there are many others who have produced great videos and DVDs, and online courses, including Renzo and several other members of our family, but the one thing we realized was that all those were produced to complement the live training that somebody received at a school of martial arts.

If someone didn’t have a school to train at, these DVDs or online videos would be of little help. My brothers and I knew that the only possible way to teach the world through video would be if we organised the entire art into a linear curriculum, from white to black belt, something that had never been done before, and then capture every detail of every technique in the exact order and lesson format that one would experience if they were to receive private lessons from us for ten years straight. So we developed Gracie University.com and we went for it.

In order to track the progress of each student, we also created a revolutionary video evaluation process through which any student can digitally record themselves performing the techniques, upon completing each section of the curriculum, then upload those videos to Gracie University.com for us to evaluate. If they perform all the techniques perfectly, they can qualify for an official belt promotion through this process, and if not, we send them a detailed evaluation report outlining each and every mistake they made at the exact time code at which it occurred.

Unlike ever before, students in the middle of nowhere can learn self defense through the internet and get ultra-specific feedback from their instructors without ever having to spend thousands of dollars having to travel to a school.

The FightWorks Podcast: So, and I want to make it clear for our listeners, whether or not you guys would say that this should take the place of a school nearby. I mean, does this replace the necessity to train with a person live? If somebody has the access to something like that locally, they should…

Rener Gracie: [interrupts] If they have the access to a quality school, that will probably make it easier to reach the top, yes, of course. The goal here is to make it possible for somebody to learn completely on their own, but of course, if you have a school, if you’re next door to the Academy, you should be training here, correct.

Put it this way: you’ll get to the top faster, if you have somebody guiding. If you’re on your own, you have to figure things out on your own, it takes much more discipline and dedication.

Since this had never been done before, we knew we would face opposition from a large segment of the population in and out of the family, and we couldn’t have been more accurate, basically. As soon as we released the Gracie Combatives course, our white to blue belt curriculum, on DVD and online, we received a visit from two of our uncles – I’m not going to say who – who told us that the course should not be released because it was too good.

They said “Rener, if you release these DVDs, why would people go to a school to learn?” They saw the DVDs of course. “You’re giving away the teaching secrets, everything that makes the Gracie family unique.”

What my uncles did not understand at the time, and what all instructors around the world still don’t understand, is that we’re not doing this to take students from the brick and mortar jiu jitsu schools, Gracie or not. We’re doing this to make the art learnable for those who live hundreds of miles away from a legitimate school, or cannot afford to pay $200 dollars a month.

My grandfather always said that the world would be a better place if everyone knew Gracie jiu jitsu.

The FightWorks Podcast: We’re not going to argue with that. [laughs]

Rener Gracie: All we’re trying to do now by giving everyone, literally, the opportunity to learn.

The FightWorks Podcast: Yeah, and I’ll agree with you, and you hear this: we get emails on the show from people who say “I live in the middle of nowhere, I’m so jealous of you guys in Southern California, and all these other places that have great jiu jitsu all over. We have maybe a blue belt in town at best.”

Rener Gracie: Right!

The FightWorks Podcast: So there is a need, I can’t argue with that.

Rener Gracie: Let me take it one step further. By, my brothers and I, releasing the curriculum online, and on DVD, in such a comprehensive and engaging format, we are actually helping every instructor in the jiu jitsu community, right? Here’s how. MMA is the fastest growing sport in the world, we all know that, but I’m willing to bet that more than 95% of the viewers would never even consider practicing anything that has to do with the UFC, not even jiu jitsu, since their only perception of the art is what they see in the cage, and they want nothing to do with that.

At Gracie University.com, we’ve made Lesson One of the Gracie Combatives course free for anyone to view. In doing so, we’re giving everyone in the world the opportunity to experience the amazingness of Gracie jiu jitsu, in the most structured and technical format ever put on video, all from the comfort, all from the comfort and safety of their own home. Invariably, once they see it, they fall in love.

Basically, by giving people all over the world their ‘intro classes’, as we call it, in their homes, my brothers and I have created students out of tens of thousands of people in 144 countries who would have never otherwise considered practicing the art. Of the students who fall in love online, some have the desire and the necessary discipline to learn from home, but most of them, as you said, will want to end up joining a local school, to help them make it to the top.

The FightWorks Podcast: Which is what we want from everybody anyhow.

Rener Gracie: Yes! So rather than fear we’re going to take food off their table, every jiu jitsu instructor, in the family and outside the family, on the planet should be thankful that we have dedicated our lives to creating more students for the art as a whole.

You know what I’m saying? My dad taught me, from a very young age, my father taught me, that any time you do anything revolutionary, you will have half the world on their side, and you will have half the world against you, and as usual, he was right.

Every major advance in the last twenty years, Caleb, from calculators to online courses, has been met with resistance from those who only saw the limitations of those advances. Gracie University.com is no exception. Those who don’t understand it hate it, but those who are now learning pure Gracie jiu jitsu because of it think it’s the best creation of all time.

So I’m willing to live with the 50-50 support from the population, as long as everyone goes to Gracie University.com and watches Lesson One for free before they choose which side they’re on.

The FightWorks Podcast: Ok, so we’ve got to wind down, so let me start to close, but I think one of the questions that raised some eyebrows, or that people first thought about when they heard about your course is that technically, from what you’ve described, it is possible to receive a black belt having never trained with somebody live before, in person, only over video. Is that accurate?

Rener Gracie: Yeah, when you say “haven’t trained with someone live,” I mean, a little more specifically, they’re training with one, two, three, five, ten people, they’re training with a lot of people. They’re not just watching and sending in a written test, they’re actually learning and doing the techniques.

Now, regarding the black belt. No. The black belt cannot be earned, they have to come to the Academy. What happens is, through the video evaluation process, the highest rank someone can get, if they want to train online, at home, in their living room, for ten or twelve years straight, whose to say they can’t learn the art, right? The highest rank they can earn is a brown belt with four stripes.

So they can go all the way up, they can earn these stripes, they can test every single stripe along the way, that they test for, and if it’s perfect all the way up, and they know the techniques…now, the tests are pretty extensive. Now basically, they show them sparring, gi and no-gi, demonstrating every technique, right? They can get to four stripe brown belt, if they train, but it’s going to take a long time, several years.

If they get there, we invite them out to the Gracie Academy so they can participate in a five-day, live black-belt qualification test, here at the Academy, 100% free to them. There’s no cost to participate in that, because of course by then, they’re family right?

So the answer is yes, someone can climb the ladder from home. It’s hard for anyone to understand how that is possible, until they see the lessons. They’ve got to see Gracie Combatives. Once you see that, you have to see the Master Cycle, our path from blue belt to black belt.

The Master Cycle, bro – I mean, it’s not even released yet, on the air, it will be there in a few months – but, it’s incredible. We don’t just teach the techniques, you know? What me and Ryron do is every single morning, we come in, we load up the cameras, we shoot lessons, and we don’t just give the techniques, we give the techniques and all the reflex development drills, the sparring exercises…we demonstrate everything and say what they’ve got to do.

We teach them how to raise the intensity…I mean it’s literally as if you were in my living room, and I was verbally coaching you every step of the way, and you had a partner and I was watching you. It’s linear, so every single class builds on the previous lessons. So they’re not just like there…

There are lots of online learning sites right now, by the way, that are great, lots of information, but there are so many videos that a student who jumps on board doesn’t even know where to start, right? They just see three hundred, five hundred, a thousand videos, and they’ve just got to kinda choose their own path, and that’s not worth doing.

As you can see, in Lesson One of Gracie Combatives, we’re taking them by the hand and we’re showing them the exact path, with the details and everything in between, so it’s pretty incredible.

I understand, because it is so unique, this whole process, I understand all the hatred from the instructors especially out there, and all the animosity and the split support. But guess what: when I get an email from someone right in the middle of nowhere, who is like “Rener, this is the best thing I’ve ever seen, I’ve been following you guys since ‘93 and I’ve been waiting for this. This is a godsend and you guys are incredible”?

Forget about it, I don’t care what anybody says negative about it, if that person, all the people out there on their own are learning, it is a 100% worth it to me and my family, because that’s what my grandfather would want. My grandfather, ultimately, would say “Hey, let’s make it available to as many people as possible.” He didn’t even know that technology could do this, right? He killed himself, broke his back, to basically teach thirty or forty private classes a day.

His claim to fame was “Rener, I used to change my gi twenty times a day,” just teaching private classes. In other words, “Rener, look at what I’m doing to help life, to help other people.” He could fight professionally, and just chill between classes, and between fights, like many other professional fighters do. But no, he was fighting one day, and the next day he is back on the mats, teaching the President of Brazil. His passion was teaching, his passion was sharing it.

We found a way, and naturally there is going to be some anger, which we accept and understand, as long as the people learn all over the world. I’m 100% ok with that.

The FightWorks Podcast: Yeah, like you said, if there are folks who otherwise would never even touch it, who find this as a vehicle to get into jiu jitsu, who can argue with that.

Rener Gracie: Yes, and the thing is we’re creating more students, the instructor should be grateful. Now, if you recall, at the end of Renzo’s interview, he seemed pretty upset, and he even challenged my brothers and I, saying that he wanted to come down here and show us the real jiu jitsu.

I hope that in this interview, I was able to clarify any misunderstanding that caused this anger towards us, but if not, I just wanted to say that I would rather give Renzo whatever title he is looking for before I would ever fight him or any other member of the family with malintentions.

Now, with that being said, if he wants to come down and choke us out a few times, like uncles are supposed to, my brothers and I would be honored, and the invitation is always open.

The FightWorks Podcast: [laughs] I was just about to ask you if you had any closing statements referring back to the interview, but you just nailed it there. Unless there is anything else, I think it’s probably time to wrap up.

I think you addressed a lot of the concerns that Renzo had, right? You talked about his concern about the student visiting and the online stuff, so anything else in general you want to say to our audience, the might 600,000, before we let you go?

Rener Gracie: No sir, thank you for the opportunity, and thank you for the call. It’s all good, it’s all family. Again, in the end, we’re all after the same thing: a world of Gracie or Brazilian jiu jitsu, everyone on the same page, everyone learning this incredible art, all our lives getting better because of it. I appreciate the support, the students, and I’m here to share. My life is dedicated to sharing, and that’s what it’s all about.

The FightWorks Podcast: Ok, Rener Gracie, thank you very much.

Rener Gracie: Thank you, bro.

Renzo Gracie

This week on The FightWorks Podcast we jump on the line with Renzo Gracie. Renzo is not only a black belt in jiu-jitsu (of course), but he is one of the Gracie family with the most mixed martial arts fights out there. As a member of Gracie Barra, Renzo has come on our show to share some of his thoughts about the comments made last week on our show by Relson Gracie. Relson offered some frank opinions about some of the changes he perceives in jiu-jitsu and like most opinions, there are those who believe differently. Renzo is known as the perennial smiling nice guy in the Gracie family but his rebuttals in this week’s show will show an angle of Renzo you probably have not heard before.

In addition to the counterpoints that Renzo states in today’s show, we learn more about the late Rolls Gracie and his role in the early development of what we call Brazilian jiu-jitsu today.

Renzo goes on to confirm that he is indeed returning to mixed martial arts action in the UFC. The date and opponent are not official but he should see action in the octagon in early 2010.

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Gracie Barra students in Southern California.

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TRANSCRIPTION OF RENZO GRACIE INTERVIEW

RENZO GRACIE

The FightWorks Podcast: All right family, this is Caleb with the Fightworks Podcast, and we have a very special guest on this week. Last week, we had a couple of big names on our show, and this week is just the same. Right now, on the call, I am joined by Renzo Gracie. Renzo, how are you?

Renzo Gracie: How are you doing my brother, nice talking to you here.

The FightWorks Podcast: We’re great, and we’re happy you’re here. Renzo, we brought you on because there are probably some opinions you have about our conversation with Relson last week.

Renzo Gracie: Yes, yes. Relson is a great guy, I love that guy.

The FightWorks Podcast: Some of the things that Relson said, may have…a few people in Gracie Barra may have strong opinions about some of the things Relson said. Do you want to start, or would you like some examples?

Renzo Gracie: Could you bring that up, because I didn’t have a chance to read the whole thing yet?

The FightWorks Podcast: One of the things that Relson said, that I think some people might find interesting, or maybe controversial, was that – and this is not an exact quote – “Roger Gracie is the only person in Gracie Barra who uses pure Gracie Jiu Jitsu.” I think he is talking about his style of attack with the closed guard, and that sort of thing. Does that help?

Renzo Gracie: Does that make sense to me, is that what you ask? [laughs]

The FightWorks Podcast: Sure, sure.

Renzo Gracie: No, it does not. Now its funny, now that you mention, I had a very strange experience this past week. One of my students, he actually went to California, and he ask me where he should train. I say, “the Gracie Academy,” because that was the closest place to where he was going. I sent him to Rorion’s Academy, the one in Torrance. He goes in, and they told him that he shouldn’t train there, because that place was the “real jiu jitsu place.” It was like they were saying he doesn’t know jiu jitsu, and is learning from a source that doesn’t know how to teach.

You know what happened, my friend: I see a lot of people now, especially my family, saying that. “Oh, I know the real jiu jitsu, you don’t know the real jiu jitsu.” We all learn from the same place, we all develop the same art together, growing up. But for some reason, once they jump in a plane and they move to America they try to sell a product, like the American people are a bunch of fools. Right now, I became American, and I know there are no fools here.

Do they pay for good service? They do. So if you feed them the real technique, if you give them the real sport, and everything like a good product, they will buy it and they don’t care about the price. But don’t try to bullshit them and expect them to accept anything you try to shove down their throat, because this is not the greatest country in the world for no reason. In reality, I see this crap today, “this is the real jiu jitsu”…let me be honest, I see jiu jitsu now turning into Krav Maga. Turn into kung fu! Like they are selling things that will chop your head in half, with a karate chop.

You know, its become a joke. Let me tell you what the real jiu jitsu is: the real jiu jitsu is the one that doesn’t back away from a challenge. It goes at the obstacle and defends its flag. It’s like, if you want to claim that you have the best fighting style, you should be in the UFC kicking some ass. That’s where the best competition is.

So when people call me, saying “this is the real jiu jitsu,” the next thing they are going to say is “I cannot use it, because I could kill you!” [laughs] You know, that’s what I heard my whole life, from those fake martial artists who claim they were better than everybody else. So believe it my friend, I live my whole life watching this and seeing this. We were always against that, and now suddenly one branch of my family is turning into that! It’s claiming that, but doesn’t go on the proving ground to prove it, does not step into the place where he should actually be representing jiu jitsu, to do it.

The only guys that are doing this now, is my team, and actually I’m from Gracie Barra. So if you’re talking bad about Gracie Barra, I was one of the founders. You talk bad about Gracie Barra, you talk bad about me! If you claim that I don’t know jiu jitsu…it’s a joke, you know?

The FightWorks Podcast: I think [laughs] the observation that you made about people claiming their jiu jitsu is the purest, or ‘the’ jiu jitsu, but not coming to demonstrate that against other jiu jitsu, is the important point.

Renzo Gracie: Yes! You have to understand one thing. The champions have the right to talk. The losers have to shut up. If you lost, you should shut your mouth off and walk away. So I don’t see no champions talking [laughs]. That’s the reality. People are selling a product, they become the king of the internet.

The ‘pure jiu jitsu’, it’s doing nothing but selling products on the internet. Again, trying to shove crap in American peoples’ mouths. This is just claiming: go and prove it with acts, my friend! The jiu jitsu was good when nobody else knew any jiu jitsu. Now, everybody knows, so now, only those who are really good shine. If you realise Gracie Barra produce more champions than anybody else, go to the world championship and try to fight in there.

You see, I am one of the guys who have the best game, believe it. If I wanna go compete on the championship level, I would have to dedicate like three or four years of my life to be on the level, of the sharpness, of those kids who are fighting in there. So I cannot question the level, the champions that they are: they are! If you win the world championship, you are legit. Nobody can question that.

Anybody questioning that, it’s because they’re afraid to step in there.

One thing I feel sorry about, is Rorion’s kids. They are very good kids, but their father feeds them nonsense. So, they could be unbelievable fighters, but they are going to end up as mediocre fighters, mediocre people. They are going to go through life as great businessmen. If I was them, I’d be selling self-help books, that’s what they should be doing. There is more money in that, instead of claiming that they are real fighters.

They are far from being real fighters. Far. Believe me. When they created a competition, when my cousin Rorion created a competition and created the rules, so his kids could win, and then tells that his kid is going to win, they couldn’t even win that. Not even the pure jiu jitsu rule that he claims he created, which was nonsense rules. Next thing I see, his kids could win nothing. They were losing to guys on the second tier, like Marc Laimon, he was beating them up. Guys who could not even feature in a world championship! People who could never compete in an Abu Dhabi and do well!

This, you know, it is talk. I don’t like to talk, especially because I do have a sharp tongue, and I’m going to strike everybody who makes no sense to me. Relson is a guy that I love, you have to understand. If he needs a roof tomorrow, he has a place in my house. Exactly like I did with his son, his son was here training with me for a long time, he’s a great kid.

Extremely good heart, very strong mind, could be an unbelievable champion, but he needs the environment for training: that’s the environment I create here in New York. A lot of champions come out of my academy. It’s not without a reason, we train for that, and the same thing at Gracie Barra. So, you can’t question that.

To be honest, if I today was Rorion, I would sign up my kids at Gracie Barra. I would put his kids to train there, so they could reach the top of their potential. Right now, they’re in an environment where they will be nobody, they’re going to be nobody for the rest of their life. Let me tell you one thing, I do believe in a spiritual world, and when you are born with the Gracie name, you have an obligation. You have to fight, you have to teach, and you have to influence people in the right direction.

So, if you start selling crap to people, if you start selling this, then chances are you’re going to fade, you’re going to disappear. You may fool one or two for a little bit, but you cannot fool everybody all the time. That’s the reality, you know.

The FightWorks Podcast: I think one of the complaints that comes from that side is they say modern jiu jitsu competition is too different from the way a real fight happens, and those rules are artificial. So, they don’t want to put their kids in, because they think it’s different from what was intended by people like Hélio Gracie.

Renzo Gracie: No, never. You have to understand, my uncle Hélio was one of the most amazing jiu jitsu fighters I have ever seen. He was responsible for developing a lot of the defence aspect. The fact that he was very weak, physically, but he was able to develop sharpness on the defence.

But, my uncle Hélio never had a chance to meet the Japanese person who actually taught my grandfather. Uncle Hélio never met him, never lay his eyes on Mitsuyo Maeda. So before Uncle Hélio, there was my grandfather Carlos Gracie, there was Jorge Gracie, there was Osvaldo Gracie and there was Gastao Gracie. Those four were fighting before my Uncle Hélio. Uncle Hélio had the chance to represent. Was he an important link on the chain? Yes he was. He was the Einstein, he spent his whole life on the mat, developing and working to make jiu jitsu better. But to claim that he was the creator? He was far from that.

This fight precedes us. We are nothing but messengers of what we receive. My grandfather was the first one, Carlos Gracie was the oldest brother. You know, the only difference, which for some reason my Uncle Hélio forgot, was the brotherly love. You see, if you call my brother Ralph now, and you ask him, who is better, him or me, he is going to tell you, it’s me. If you call me now and ask me, who is better, I will tell you it’s him.

We both know who is better, because we’ve trained together our whole life, but I want to see him in the highest spot. I know he wants to see me that way too. If you ask both of us who is actually better, that came out from my mother’s womb, we would both tell you it was our brother Ryan. This is the difference, between the brotherhood and the love we have for each other, and what my Uncle Hélio and his descendants have.

A lot of times, people only respect the hammer, so let me be honest: I am tired of being the nice guy. I have the fucking hammer in my hand! These people keep talking nonsense and insulting others. So they better be ready to step in there and stand up for their beliefs, because I’m ready to get in there and stand up for everything I believe. I also have a beautiful pair of brass balls to do it. [laughs]

The FightWorks Podcast: Renzo, I want to help clarify things. So, you are saying – for our audience out there – that Carlos Sr was the one who learned from Maeda, and Hélio learned from Carlos…

Renzo Gracie: Yes!

The FightWorks Podcast: …and then it went forward?

Renzo Gracie: Yes! He learned from Carlos and his brothers, Osvaldo, Gastao and Jorge. That’s the reality. He was the youngest one. He would be coming to the academy looking at them teaching jiu jitsu. You want to claim he invented jiu jitsu? If there is anybody who can have that claim, in our family, after my grandfather (my grandfather never claimed it), then it would be Rolls.

Rolls is the one who died in a hang-gliding accident, and he was the guy who actually completely changed jiu jitsu in Brazil. He started training a lot of wrestling, a lot of judo, he started training SAMBO, and he was able to incorporate all that into jiu jitsu. He was the one responsible for all the evolution we have today. He was the pioneer of all that change.

Rickson, as good as he was, Rolls was his teacher. All the new generation, they became that great because they learned from him. Relson was great because he learned from him too. So if someone has that claim, only Rolls could do that, but he was humble enough to understand that he was nothing but part of a link in a huge chain that we hope will last forever. I hope that I will see my son one day representing our sport in the ring.

Guys who don’t step in the ring, but want to claim they have the pure jiu jitsu, they sent my student away. Look at the difference: if one of their students came to my place, and claimed he is from their school, I won’t charge him, he will have the class for free. He will be training with us, and I will be trying to help him, in anyway I can, to improve his jiu jitsu. On the other hand, when my students goes there, he has to put up with an embarrassment like that. Someone claiming that that place is where the pure jiu jitsu is, and the jiu jitsu that he knows doesn’t work. This is a joke! I was laughing, when the guy told me, I was laughing.

That’s the reality. When a blue belt student of mine goes there, he is able to finish the brown belts! So, I really ask you, who has the pure jiu jitsu, who is the real deal? I’m not selling garbage here, I’m selling the reality, the one that I learned. I’m in a very privileged position. If I could go back in time, and be fifteen or sixteen years old again, I wouldn’t do it, because I had the chance to know the first generation, the second generation, the third generation, and for sure, I’ll know the fourth generation of fighters in my family. I will help to build them.

This rarity, I had the chance to see everything, to be in the middle of everything, I can tell you from my heart everything I saw. I know, a lot of people are becoming business orientated and their only thing is to make a buck at the end of the day. Believe it, if that was what my goal, I wouldn’t be doing what I’m doing, I’d be working in the financial market. I would have better odds to make it, instead of being in the martial arts business. This business is for those who put their art first. I would leave the rest of my life, without clothes, just wearing my gi and sleeping on the mat, with my wife and my kids living in the academy, and I would not betray everything I believe in and live, up to now.

So I tell you, while everyone would like to go back and be young again, I wouldn’t change my life one bit, because with what I learn and what I’ve seen, I’m happy with my age. I never understood when my father told me, when I was young, that every age would have its beauty. Now I understand. As I mature, the more I understand life, the more I understand every little experience that I had.

Everything that I’ve lived tells me that Gracie Barra – and now the Brazilian jiu jitsu dies out there, it’s lost – Gracie Barra is one of the main ones, because it was one of the initial ones. Gracie Barra, Alliance, and now the Gracie academies that are out there, to represent Brazilian jiu jitsu, they are the real deal.

If you have a guy competing in the world championship, if you have a guy competing in the nationals, on the top high level of athletes, and he’s doing good, that shows how great your schools are. Anyone that tells you otherwise, they’re out of their mind, it makes no sense. They shouldn’t be walking around the giants that I grew up with, you know, rubbing shoulders with them, which made me understand how great this sport is.

Anybody who gave that away, to get money back, only think about money, it’s completely wrong.

The FightWorks Podcast: Renzo, one of the things you said, I want to talk about. You said, if anybody deserves credit for making jiu jitsu what it is today, its Rolls, because he incorporated judo, wrestling, everything else, into something that before was more simple.

Renzo Gracie: Yes, he was responsible for all the innovations. I remember when I learned the triangle choke, at his academy, in Figueiredo Magalhaes 414 in Copacabana. I do remember, I was there! You can’t come to me and claim that you made this, you made that: it’s a joke. I see guys know, they learn a choke here and there, and they claim to create it. One strong example of that is when I show the anaconda choke to Rickson at PRIDE 2, the second PRIDE that I fought, we saw this move together. Seven years, eight years later, people claim they create it.

This all came from the infinite source of knowledge that my family is. Every time we came together, we exchange knowledge, we saw the moves, we saw everything. So for people to claim, like, that “now I have the purest”, they don’t go in the arena to prove it…it’s wrong. Rolls was always willing to be in there and prove how efficient it was. If you ran your mouth too much, he’d show up at the academy to kick your ass. That’s how he has, that’s how we learned, that’s how we grew up.

I had the chance to see all those generations, one after another, how everything was formed. I saw kids becoming men, you know, together with me as I was growing up. I saw guys like Roger. People claim that Roger has the purest jiu jitsu. Let me explain something to you: the only teacher Roger had his whole life was Carlos Gracie Jr, the head coach of Gracie Barra. He was his main teacher. When Roger was a champion, he came training with me here in New York to improve his no gi. My Uncle Carlos sent him over to train here with me, so he could start fighting in MMA.

In reality, everything Roger knows, was learned from Carlos Gracie Jr, the head of Gracie Barra. Believe it. If you want to sign up your kids, one of the best places to do it will be a Gracie Barra academy. So Rorion should actually do that! Especially because they are now like forty-five minutes from the academy. He should go there and sign up his kids, so they can learn what real jiu jitsu is, you know?

The FightWorks Podcast: There is a lot of Gracie Barra out there.

Renzo Gracie: Yes! For sure, he should go look for the closest one and go train there. Let me tell you one thing, I don’t tell you this to make fun, or try to talk down to them. I tell you this so they can read it, and understand they should be doing that!

Without the kids, Gracie Barra back then was too small. So every two or three days of the week, we had only ten guys to train with, when Gracie Barra was created. I was there, I was a kid, me, Ralph and Ryan. Every chance I had, I would go to Rickson’s academy to roll with him, to roll with my cousin Royler, and all the great guys that were there training.

He should do the same! If he wants to get better, he should go to his cousins academy and train there because that is where the champions are. They can claim they are good, once they can finish those guys. If you cannot finish them, if you cannot dominate them, if you cannot sweep them, if you cannot mount, you cannot show your superiority on the mat, just keep your mouth shut. You’ll look better. You won’t force me to go out of my way, to be talking the truth here.

The FightWorks Podcast: Renzo, you mentioned a story, one of the times when all the guys at Rolls academy down there, went to another academy, who gave problems, I think to Charles Gracie?

Renzo Gracie: Yes, yes, it was a guy from luta livre. We went there, and that’s how all of the fights between luta livre and jiu jitsu started. We had a fight on the street hours from that fight. Rillion, my cousin Rillion, who teaches in Florida, went down and fought the national champion in taekwondo, the luta livre guy. So, he beat the crap out of the guy on the street, and then this guy sneak from behind my brother Charles and knock him out, on the street. So, we went to his academy, and we beat the crap out of everybody there. That’s how everything started.

So, my friend, they force me to one day do a visit, because I will do it. I will grab two or three of my cousins here, and come over, to see who the real jiu jitsu is. So stop talking nonsense, stop selling your fish with doubts, stepping on people’s heads. You want to sell your fish, that actually isn’t fresh: it is fish that has been dead in a boat for over a month! Just because you keep it nice, don’t come and claim that our fish is bad. Our fish, we pick it up in the morning and sell at lunch time, that’s how the market works.

So don’t force me one day to do a visit, because I will do it. Right now, I’ve been training a lot, and I want to fight again. If along the way I need to do a visit, I will do it! I’ll bring the class with me, exactly like they liked to do it in the old times. I know exactly what is going to happen, when I get there, they will tell me “where do you think you are? You’re in America, I will call the police! You don’t belong here!” I do believe that is going to be the reaction. They don’t even have the balls to back it up, I don’t believe they have it. I know what I’m talking about, my friend, believe it.

I’ve seen everything, and anybody who needs to put the others down to look better, this is nothing but cowardice. I don’t put people down. I do admire them, I admire their work, I want them to succeed, but don’t come and claim that I’m behind in line, in any situation. That my team, the Barra Gracie, doesn’t have quality jiu jitsu. This is nonsense. That is the school that I helped to form, and that is the school that I’m willing to stand and defend any time.

I know that the quality of champions that come from that battlefield. I’ve been there to see it, and every time I have a chance, I go back there. Not only to teach, but to learn, because the people that are there are all great.

The FightWorks Podcast: Renzo, you talked a little about preparing to fight again. Can you tell our listeners a little about that?

Renzo Gracie: Yes my friend, I had a great meeting with Dana White, and the Fertitta brothers. They invite me to be part of the UFC. What can I say? How can I say no? I was two and a half years doing nothing but being lazy and eating chocolate, watching TV and watching the unbelievable fights that they put up, and I say, “this is it, it’s time to go back and have some with these young guns.”

So here I am. I will probably be back in action, I hope, at the beginning of next year. I know the invitation still stands, and my gut is already gone, I’m in good shape, so it’s time to battle.

The FightWorks Podcast: I know all of our listeners, because we are all jiu jitsu guys, listening right now, all over the world…our audience is called the Mighty 600,000. There’s not 600,000, but that’s the name.

Renzo Gracie: My brother, to be honest, with all the jiu jitsu guys here today, I do believe you have six million, my friend. [laughs]

The FightWorks Podcast: They are all going to be watching and pulling for you Renzo, so we wish you good luck with that. Anything else you want to tell our audience, before I let you go?

Renzo Gracie: My brother, thanks for this little space that you gave me, thanks for your friendship, and thanks for the giving the opportunity to express all my feelings. All you guys who train jiu jitsu, it is an honour to be fighting there for you guys. For every man who sweats and bleeds under the jiu jitsu flag, you know? This sport is not mine, it’s ours. So its a great pleasure to be representing us in there.

The FightWorks Podcast: Excellent. Thank you very much, Renzo!

Renzo Gracie: Thank you my brother, all the best my friend.